This is the part 3 of my ongoing response to the Neo- Vedanta thesis. I am only taking the main points of Kelamuni and responding, one will realise that once I have refuted these main points, the other points used to build this thesis falls down like a pack of cards.Following are the points,
"Though the Upanishads relate various states of consciousness, such as dreaming, to certain metaphysical conceptions, there is no unanimity in the Upanishads as to how such states are to be conceived. We find, for example, more than one theory associated with the state of dreaming. According to one account, the self wanders around outside the body during dreaming. It is in the context of this idea that Brhad Up 4.3.14 says, "do not wake him too suddenly," lest his dream-self not find its way back into its body. But according to another idea the self remains inside the body while dreaming (Brhad Up 2.1.8). This is the interpretation favored by Shankara. Here, it is apparent that we have two very different conceptions of dreaming. Now if these conceptions of dreaming were derived entirely from the experience of dreaming itself, we would not find different interpretations of what happens when one dreams. This means that account of dreaming found in the Upanishads also derives from speculation and that it is not based solely on the "raw" experience of dreaming."
Note the nonsense stating by this Kelamuni, who is he to tell us about our own scriptures, fortunately I have done a decent study of the Upanishads and what he says is absolutely wrong.Now as for the various states of consciousness one finds 2 things very clear in both the Chhandogya and the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, the subtle body or the Sookshma Sharira is something which is within the body. Both the Upanishads tell the same thing the Sookshma Sharira is with in the body and not outside of it. The next question will be why is Shankara saying "do not wake him too suddenly" one must understand that Shankara knew all Shastras and in the Yoga Shastra it clearly states that the Jiva moves from the head to the cave of the heart. When the Jiva is moving from the head to the heart he experiences dreams and then goes to the heart and experiences deep sleep. So it could mean that Shankara is saying do not wake him up suddenly otherwise the consciousness may not function properly in the head. This definitely seems to be true.This is in short a response to Kelamuni.
This shows his poor understanding of what the Upanishads are and makes whatever conclusion he wants.
Rest of what he says is just repeating the same thing. He further continues
"Rg Veda (10.136), for example, describes the ecstatic experiences of the keshins, long-haired munis, who appear to drink some sort of psychotropic compound (visha) and fly through the air with the winds, "looking down on those below." More significantly, Rg Veda 10.59 describes how the soul (manas) of someone thought to be dead has "wandered" some distance in the nether worlds before returning to its body. Later, the Katha Upanishad speaks of the practice of separating the inner self (antar-atma) from the body just as the core from a stalk of grass is pulled from its sheath (2.3.17). Even the Buddhists speculate about the ability to separate the "mental body" from the physical body (mano-maya-rddhi)."
Now let us looks at the Rig Vedic verse quoted by him
"1. HE with the long loose locks supports Agni, and moisture, heaven, and earth:
He is all sky to look upon: he with long hair is called this light.
2 The Munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow hue.
They, following the wind's swift course go where the Gods have gone before.
3 Transported with our Munihood we have pressed on into the winds:
You therefore, mortal men. behold our natural bodies and no more.
4 The Muni, made associate in the holy work of every God,
Looking upon all varied forms flies through the region of the air.
5 The Steed of Vata, Vayu's friend, the Muni, by the Gods impelled,
In both the oceans hath his home, in eastern and in western sea.
6 Treading the path of sylvan beasts, Gandharvas, and Apsarases,
He with long locks, who knows the wish, is a sweet most delightful friend
7 Vayu hath churned for him: for him he poundeth things most hard to bend,
When he with long loose locks hath drunk, with Rudra, water from the cup."
My question is that does this verse make any sense to you, it won't since some one has to give the context of the verse . Now the Muni with long hair, with his loose locks supports Agni and moisture. Now could this simply mean Munis who are hallucinating ? In that case why should they say "He with the long loose locks" ? So this means that the Keshin as told here are not Munis who have actually got intoxicated and imagining.
Now Keshin here merely means the sun and if you search Monier Williams dictionary for the word "Visha" it has several meanings and not just poison. It can simply mean "being active". Hence the translator has done a very good job at bringing out the meaning of the verse.
He also compares the Yogis of the North and South however we are concerned only with that Yoga viz is in tune with the Vedas. Patanjali's Yoga is definitely intune with the Vedas.
I think this is more than enough to prove that he is creating a serious blunder by supposing that the Vedic and other Dharmic traditions are based on inference which is not the case. Inference does work in these traditions no doubt but the preference is given to experiential knowledge, this becomes clear from Vasubandhu's experience, this is the very reason that there is no philosophy in India there are only Darshanas.
"Though the Upanishads relate various states of consciousness, such as dreaming, to certain metaphysical conceptions, there is no unanimity in the Upanishads as to how such states are to be conceived. We find, for example, more than one theory associated with the state of dreaming. According to one account, the self wanders around outside the body during dreaming. It is in the context of this idea that Brhad Up 4.3.14 says, "do not wake him too suddenly," lest his dream-self not find its way back into its body. But according to another idea the self remains inside the body while dreaming (Brhad Up 2.1.8). This is the interpretation favored by Shankara. Here, it is apparent that we have two very different conceptions of dreaming. Now if these conceptions of dreaming were derived entirely from the experience of dreaming itself, we would not find different interpretations of what happens when one dreams. This means that account of dreaming found in the Upanishads also derives from speculation and that it is not based solely on the "raw" experience of dreaming."
Note the nonsense stating by this Kelamuni, who is he to tell us about our own scriptures, fortunately I have done a decent study of the Upanishads and what he says is absolutely wrong.Now as for the various states of consciousness one finds 2 things very clear in both the Chhandogya and the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, the subtle body or the Sookshma Sharira is something which is within the body. Both the Upanishads tell the same thing the Sookshma Sharira is with in the body and not outside of it. The next question will be why is Shankara saying "do not wake him too suddenly" one must understand that Shankara knew all Shastras and in the Yoga Shastra it clearly states that the Jiva moves from the head to the cave of the heart. When the Jiva is moving from the head to the heart he experiences dreams and then goes to the heart and experiences deep sleep. So it could mean that Shankara is saying do not wake him up suddenly otherwise the consciousness may not function properly in the head. This definitely seems to be true.This is in short a response to Kelamuni.
This shows his poor understanding of what the Upanishads are and makes whatever conclusion he wants.
Rest of what he says is just repeating the same thing. He further continues
"Rg Veda (10.136), for example, describes the ecstatic experiences of the keshins, long-haired munis, who appear to drink some sort of psychotropic compound (visha) and fly through the air with the winds, "looking down on those below." More significantly, Rg Veda 10.59 describes how the soul (manas) of someone thought to be dead has "wandered" some distance in the nether worlds before returning to its body. Later, the Katha Upanishad speaks of the practice of separating the inner self (antar-atma) from the body just as the core from a stalk of grass is pulled from its sheath (2.3.17). Even the Buddhists speculate about the ability to separate the "mental body" from the physical body (mano-maya-rddhi)."
Now let us looks at the Rig Vedic verse quoted by him
"1. HE with the long loose locks supports Agni, and moisture, heaven, and earth:
He is all sky to look upon: he with long hair is called this light.
2 The Munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow hue.
They, following the wind's swift course go where the Gods have gone before.
3 Transported with our Munihood we have pressed on into the winds:
You therefore, mortal men. behold our natural bodies and no more.
4 The Muni, made associate in the holy work of every God,
Looking upon all varied forms flies through the region of the air.
5 The Steed of Vata, Vayu's friend, the Muni, by the Gods impelled,
In both the oceans hath his home, in eastern and in western sea.
6 Treading the path of sylvan beasts, Gandharvas, and Apsarases,
He with long locks, who knows the wish, is a sweet most delightful friend
7 Vayu hath churned for him: for him he poundeth things most hard to bend,
When he with long loose locks hath drunk, with Rudra, water from the cup."
My question is that does this verse make any sense to you, it won't since some one has to give the context of the verse . Now the Muni with long hair, with his loose locks supports Agni and moisture. Now could this simply mean Munis who are hallucinating ? In that case why should they say "He with the long loose locks" ? So this means that the Keshin as told here are not Munis who have actually got intoxicated and imagining.
Now Keshin here merely means the sun and if you search Monier Williams dictionary for the word "Visha" it has several meanings and not just poison. It can simply mean "being active". Hence the translator has done a very good job at bringing out the meaning of the verse.
He also compares the Yogis of the North and South however we are concerned only with that Yoga viz is in tune with the Vedas. Patanjali's Yoga is definitely intune with the Vedas.
I think this is more than enough to prove that he is creating a serious blunder by supposing that the Vedic and other Dharmic traditions are based on inference which is not the case. Inference does work in these traditions no doubt but the preference is given to experiential knowledge, this becomes clear from Vasubandhu's experience, this is the very reason that there is no philosophy in India there are only Darshanas.
No comments:
Post a Comment